Bad experience with Pro M wing

GTC
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Inscription : lun. août 05, 2019 10:52 pm

Bad experience with Pro M wing

Message par GTC » sam. juil. 17, 2021 3:19 pm

Hi there,
Last year I bought a foil set up for kiting. Catch 4'10'' and Pro M wing.
This wing is so lifty and sensitive that it's very difficult to progress. This thing always wants to shoot you up and is very difficult to ride flat without taking off... To make things worst, the board tracks are too forward positioned.
Has anyone experienced similar problems with their Pro wings? Is there a compatible wing with less lift?

eric38000
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Re: Bad experience with Pro M wing

Message par eric38000 » sam. juil. 17, 2021 10:23 pm

Héllo
I have this setup with the stab kite 45 and both carbon mast 85 and alu mast 80.
I have put the front strap completely forward and mast completely backward
The back foot is positionned in front of the back strap and a little in the part of the board under the wind.
This help to control the shoot up . Do not take a ttoo big kite and do gentle movements with the kite.
The best conditions are flat water 11 knots and a 10 meter kite.
Please note that you must bend your knees and not stay straits.
Getting the balance with a 4.10 is not obvious between nose dive and over shoot.

I weight 75 kg and yes it was quite surprising but you can manage this set up.
I also spend few hours with a 45 cm alu mast to manage the balance at the water start.
Now i love it.
Lately i used this setup in 20 kts with a 7 meter kite i was overpowered but with some habit you can manage.
You can also update your board with the latest cath i beleive the rail are now more backward positionned.
You can also take a longer board above 5.0
Cheers
Eric

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CyTo
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Re: Bad experience with Pro M wing

Message par CyTo » sam. juil. 17, 2021 11:19 pm

Hello,

I also have a Catch 4'6 combined with the Allvator 69 Pro M (stab 45 kite) and I don't have any similar problem.
This 69 Pro M kite (now the Curve) has become my reference foil (with mast in 85cm) in 10nds as well as in 20nds and all this while changing my kite.

At the beginning, if wing rises too much, move back the mast.
Dernière modification par CyTo le dim. juil. 18, 2021 11:21 am, modifié 2 fois.
CyTo Ambassadeur
Unik 9/Strutwave 11/Carbon Mast 85/Allvator 69Pro M/Stab Fast45+Catch FSP 2X 4'4
Neutra 3.5+4.5+5.5/LethalPro120/ CarbonMast HM 85/Curve H1300+H1100/Stab Fluid H45
Cloud WCKF 8'6/NFA PRO 9XL/CM10'6/Pagaies Carbon Pro 7+8+Alu

GTC
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Re: Bad experience with Pro M wing

Message par GTC » dim. juil. 18, 2021 12:50 am

Thanks for your answers guys,
Of course the mast is all the way back. And as some of you said above, the rear foot sits slightly forward the rear footstrap (I take it off).
Is there a wing with less lift than the Carve? The Fluid and Veloce are slightly smaller...

By the way, the quality of the Catch board is beyond my expectations.
This board doesn't have a protective and glossy coat layer... as a result it stains very easily. Although it's made of epoxy (or at least that's what the specs say) it is VERY fragile. Mine has small dents and scratches all over the surface. I owned several surfboards and never seen this before.
It has no inserts for the straps screws. Looks like the holes are made directly into the deck. In fact, the screws have sharp tips (like the ones used in wood).
And last but not least, the mount track should be placed much further back. There is a 20cm gap (!!!) between the track and the tail.

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coolas
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Re: Bad experience with Pro M wing

Message par coolas » dim. juil. 18, 2021 5:26 am

GTC a écrit :
dim. juil. 18, 2021 12:50 am
It has no inserts for the straps screws. Looks like the holes are made directly into the deck. In fact, the screws have sharp tips (like the ones used in wood).
It has inserts, these: https://www.gong-galaxy.com/en/product/ ... ap-insert/

The holes have no threads, you create them in the plastic itself with the screw, like in wood (hence the screw design).

These type of inserts are common in the surf/SUP-oriented world, to save weight, as opposed to the metal inserts of sailboards. Because of the friction of the plastic, you only need 2 screws per strap instead of 4 with metal ones.

As for the board construction, you can see it detailed under the "techno" tab. You will see that it is not 100% epoxy, it has a layer of polyester hotcoat, then a thin veil of paint. Polyester hotcoating is often used as more resistant to scratches than epoxy, but once dented it chips more easily (polyester sticks less to the underlying surfaces than epoxy). But it does not compromise the structure of the board nor its waterproofness. I repair mine in minutes with some solarez thin layer under a stretched clear PVC tape, you even do not need to sand it. A lot of production board makers use polyester or polyurethane hotcoats, epoxy hotcoat are tricky (and thus more expensive) to do well for mass production. And outer layers, even mere paint, can weight a lot! (typically 500g for an opaque paint coat)

PS: I am not pretending your issues do no exist. I just want to correct errors like "holes are made directly into the deck" and to explain the compromises that may not be obvious to the average customer, but each manufacturer is faced with: basically finding a satisfying mix between cheap, strong, and light... and no it cannot be 100% each :-)
Dernière modification par coolas le dim. juil. 18, 2021 4:55 pm, modifié 5 fois.
2019: 7'3" Fatal 105L, Alley 7'8" 105L & 8'1" 120L, Zero 9'0" 115L
2022: Mob 7'6" cool 120L, Alleys custom 7'10" 112L & 8'1" 114L
2023: Karmen custom 7'11" 118L
Surf: 9'1" XTR proto glider

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CyTo
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Re: Bad experience with Pro M wing

Message par CyTo » dim. juil. 18, 2021 11:25 am

GTC a écrit :
dim. juil. 18, 2021 12:50 am
This board doesn't have a protective and glossy coat layer... as a result it stains very easily. Although it's made of epoxy (or at least that's what the specs say) it is VERY fragile. Mine has small dents and scratches all over the surface.
Several of us, have mentioned the problem of the fragility of this finish...
However, despite the fragile finish, the board remains very solid with the help of the carbon layer underneath...
CyTo Ambassadeur
Unik 9/Strutwave 11/Carbon Mast 85/Allvator 69Pro M/Stab Fast45+Catch FSP 2X 4'4
Neutra 3.5+4.5+5.5/LethalPro120/ CarbonMast HM 85/Curve H1300+H1100/Stab Fluid H45
Cloud WCKF 8'6/NFA PRO 9XL/CM10'6/Pagaies Carbon Pro 7+8+Alu

GTC
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Re: Bad experience with Pro M wing

Message par GTC » dim. juil. 18, 2021 8:54 pm

Thanks for clarifying the issue about the inserts.
As for the Pro M wing, is there a wing with less lift? I don't care if it is more technical. I just want a wing that needs a little more input to start flying. The Pro M has so much lift that even the water start is tricky.
Thanks in advance.

eric38000
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Re: Bad experience with Pro M wing

Message par eric38000 » dim. juil. 18, 2021 11:31 pm

Hello
Well instead of focusing on the hardware you should share a little more your difficulties
What is your weight your age and in which conditions you learn.

You have plenty of easy and boring foils for beginners at low price. If you are not happy change brand.

Changing your front wing will not help.going to a 45 cm mast will help.
Going to the foil kite will give you less lift but this thing is damn fast and delicate to manage.

Well my catch looks ugly and i do not dare to sell it. My spot is full of rocks no sand here.
I put protection tape all around the board.

Cheers
Eric

GTC
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Re: Bad experience with Pro M wing

Message par GTC » lun. juil. 19, 2021 12:19 am

eric38000 a écrit :
dim. juil. 18, 2021 11:31 pm
What is your weight your age and in which conditions you learn.
I weight 72 kg, 33 yo and 15 years of kiting experience. Normally I foil in around 10-18 knots.
I have tried other foils -some more technical than mine- and their lift is more predictable and manageable than the Gong.

gaby
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Re: Bad experience with Pro M wing

Message par gaby » lun. juil. 19, 2021 9:45 am

Hello,

Has every-one said, i think you need to focus more on your balance and keeping pressure under your front foot that looking at the front wing.

It is indeed powerful for kitefoiling but it is easy, slow and stable too.

If you want something less powerful you will have the Fluid M at 900cm2 and thiner profile or the Freeride 65 (700) but you need the freeride fuselage.

KappuhH
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Re: Bad experience with Pro M wing

Message par KappuhH » lun. juil. 19, 2021 3:05 pm

Which stab do you use? I've read that for example the surf and veloce stab are creating more front foot pressure. If you want less front foot pressure you have to choose one of the kite stabs.

eric38000
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Re: Bad experience with Pro M wing

Message par eric38000 » lun. juil. 19, 2021 5:06 pm

Hello
I am almost same weight 75 .
I use the m pro and stab kite 45 also. For me this setup is to go slow make manoeuver and use a kite as small as possible
It is a surf foil that we use with a kite not a kite foil. But it is fine if you blend into the philosophie. :wink:
I use my 7 meter as soon as i can. Let say 12 knots.
With this setup i am not looking for speed nor for power and therefore i find it manageable.

In a video l'ours explain that you can have less front foot whith a smaller stab like kite 40 or a stab whith less angle like the fluid stab.
You could also go for a fluid front wing but i do not have it so you are on your own.
I have the veloce m but for me it is faster and also delicate to control.
Translate i do not have enought level to manage this wing at hight speed and at low speed the cuve is much confortable.
I hope it help.

Cheers
Eric

Fred06
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Re: Bad experience with Pro M wing

Message par Fred06 » lun. juil. 19, 2021 7:35 pm

A surf foil will only work in kite for specific program with specific kite. The curve is for playing in the waves with a kite that has a lot of drift (single skin, strutless...)
For a standard program (freeride), buy a kite foil

eric38000
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Re: Bad experience with Pro M wing

Message par eric38000 » sam. juil. 24, 2021 10:46 am

+1 @fred06
The kite characteristic is also important affecting the foil behavior. And vice versa.
I have spend some days with stable wind conditions and i have tried several kite setup.some holidays right now. :D
Same foil same mast same stab here the veloce stab 47 which gives stability
I manage to use a grunty 12 m kite with lots of base power and although this allows early planning
It is touchy to have a smooth control and i could not kite fast .
On the other hand with almost the same wind i used a 8 meter kite that is very very efficient and goes very fast forward
With little base power. The handling is completely different i can achieve good speed going downwind or upwind with speed and control . I even manage to gibe and change foot without falling .i am in the learning phase. This surprised me a lot.
Two kites same foil and a complete different way of foiling.

Kite foiling is more complicated because of the kite and foil association.

I hope this helps

Cheers
Eric

gaby
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Re: Bad experience with Pro M wing

Message par gaby » lun. juil. 26, 2021 11:14 am

Hello,

That's so true! If you go almost over powered or with a too grunty kite your big front wing is going to saturate way too fast! You will feel like the foil is "scratching" under water. It's like it goes too fast too soon .

When you go with a smaller kite or a good gliding one that produce good apparent wind you foil go slowly to is best speed and glide much better!

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