Upwind Wing Sup

Tout savoir sur comment winger / All you need to know about how to wing
IcSurf
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Inscription : jeu. sept. 07, 2017 3:43 pm

Upwind Wing Sup

Message par IcSurf » mer. août 14, 2019 5:40 pm

Hi, for translation I will keep it short and simple.

I am enjoying my 5m wing on a non foil sup. I took a few waves with it today and its really fun.

I am hoping to learn to ride a sup foil to use with the wing eventually.

My question.. Today 12 to 16 knots wind I struggled to stay upwind and on my previous sessions also. Has anyone managed this on a sup (no foil).? If so any help with technique.. I am using a 10'6 30" JP Allround longboard.

Thanks
Ian
2019 Gong 9' SUP Zero Pro Carbon 115L
2019 Gong 7'6 Mob 105L FSP
NSP 12'6 26" Puma Pro Carbon
Gong 100% Carbon Pro Paddle 7"
Gong Chip 8' 26"
Light Board Corp 100% Carbon Race Paddle
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coolas
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Re: Upwind Wing Sup

Message par coolas » mer. août 14, 2019 6:22 pm

It is easy if you have windsurfing experience.

Otherwise, don't stuggle. Just get some centerboards or make them yourself with some plywood & strap:


https://supinflatables.co.uk/arrows-drift-stopper.html

Image
2016: 7'3" Fatal Vector Proto 110l
2017: 6'10" One Pro
2018: Karmen 7'11" & 8'4"
2019: 7'3" Fatal, Alley 7'8" & 8'1"
Foil: allvator 80cm + SUP AS 6'10"
Surf: 9'1" XTR proto

IcSurf
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Inscription : jeu. sept. 07, 2017 3:43 pm

Re: Upwind Wing Sup

Message par IcSurf » mer. août 14, 2019 7:12 pm

That looks good. I have never wind surfed and have only a little wind knowledge. I will try a few more times and if I'm still struggling upwind I will purchase the centreboard you suggested. Thanks Colas.
Ian
2019 Gong 9' SUP Zero Pro Carbon 115L
2019 Gong 7'6 Mob 105L FSP
NSP 12'6 26" Puma Pro Carbon
Gong 100% Carbon Pro Paddle 7"
Gong Chip 8' 26"
Light Board Corp 100% Carbon Race Paddle
Gong 5m Wing

IcSurf
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Re: Upwind Wing Sup

Message par IcSurf » mer. août 14, 2019 9:08 pm

Colas, i looked on a few forums and it seems with Sups with no foil it seems a common problem and like me lack of wind experience. One person posted this..


There really isn't much need for a centerboard once you get used to the wing, any board with a long straight rail is easy to get upwind. You move back a little on the board, get the wing a bit behind your center and it steams upwind. It's actually easy to push it into a tack.

I understand moving back on the board which I have been doing but I don't understand the get the wind behind your centre.. Do you know what he means?
2019 Gong 9' SUP Zero Pro Carbon 115L
2019 Gong 7'6 Mob 105L FSP
NSP 12'6 26" Puma Pro Carbon
Gong 100% Carbon Pro Paddle 7"
Gong Chip 8' 26"
Light Board Corp 100% Carbon Race Paddle
Gong 5m Wing

Pi-Wi74
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Re: Upwind Wing Sup

Message par Pi-Wi74 » mer. août 14, 2019 10:27 pm

You have to move your Wing not the wind just behind your Center 😁
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coolas
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Re: Upwind Wing Sup

Message par coolas » jeu. août 15, 2019 8:28 am

IcSurf, that's part of the Windsurfing techniques, but they take quite a long time to learn, so I think it is better if you just screw a crude fin on a plywood plank and strap it under your board.

Otherwise, the wing is pushing you sideways, and the board + fin is resisting. By moving the centre of effort (CE) forward of the center of resistance (CR) you bear away from the wind, and aft you go into the wind:

Image

adding a centerboard moves the CR forward so it makes the process easier. plus it stabilizes the CR, without it, the CR will move wildly with each of your movements and chop. Otherwise, you need both to dig the upwind rails in the water to move the CR forward and move the wing backwards. But It is easier to control the digging of the rail with a Windsurfing sail, as the mast helps you control the board. I think it will be much harder with a wing, just try to dig a rail with a SUP, it is hard to do consistently. Plus on a windsurf we have a lot more control of the sail and can modify the pressure gradient on it to steer with experience.

I could not find a pic of digging the upwind rail in low wind, here it is in high wind:

Image
2016: 7'3" Fatal Vector Proto 110l
2017: 6'10" One Pro
2018: Karmen 7'11" & 8'4"
2019: 7'3" Fatal, Alley 7'8" & 8'1"
Foil: allvator 80cm + SUP AS 6'10"
Surf: 9'1" XTR proto

IcSurf
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Re: Upwind Wing Sup

Message par IcSurf » mer. sept. 04, 2019 8:31 pm

A quick update.. On my 5th session with the 5m wing and Sup (no foil) I went upwind and stayed upwind. This is significant for anyone like me with no wind knowledge or experience.
2019 Gong 9' SUP Zero Pro Carbon 115L
2019 Gong 7'6 Mob 105L FSP
NSP 12'6 26" Puma Pro Carbon
Gong 100% Carbon Pro Paddle 7"
Gong Chip 8' 26"
Light Board Corp 100% Carbon Race Paddle
Gong 5m Wing

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Fabio
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Inscription : mer. sept. 11, 2019 6:29 pm

Re: Upwind Wing Sup

Message par Fabio » jeu. sept. 12, 2019 6:43 pm

I received my 5m wing a week ago and after 2 sessions on my 9' surf SUP, I must say I also have some problems going upwind.

I have some experience windsurfing, so I'm familiar with the idea that to go upwing you must try to have the center of effort (CE) behind the center of resistance (CR).

But then I'm wondering: doesn't that mean that a big fin at the back of my SUP does more harm than good to go upwind?

A big fin at the back means that the CR is itself very much at the back of the board, so it becomes really hard to have the CE behind the CR...

What about using no fin, and trying to use only the wind-facing rail as resistance? Wouldn't it be better?
Je parle anglais et français, donc n'hésitez pas à m'écrire dans la langue que vous préférez.
I speak both English and French - souvent au même temps - so feel free to answer in whichever you prefer.

Takuma Surf SUP 9' x 29' 135L
Gong 5m Wing

herve85
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Re: Upwind Wing Sup

Message par herve85 » dim. sept. 22, 2019 9:24 pm

I tried my wing 5 m2 today with no foil . As a lazy guy I let the low side of the wing upon my board and then naturally the front side is like an inflatable mast vertical and I use it like the sail of a windsurf , I have been amazed how upwind it could go with a mob 7'11 with the 4 regular fins , and the best thing is that the wing does not block in the water , and you don't get tired arms !!!! good to be lazy even with strong wind , it is a way to relax and go fast and upwind . If you use the wing a classical way , I found it more difficult because the low side easely go to the water ! and hard to go up wind ! try it ! I adopted it !
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Luca Rua
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Re: Upwind Wing Sup

Message par Luca Rua » mer. sept. 25, 2019 11:49 am

Hello Herve,

thank you for your useful contributions, if you are able to send us a video would be really helpful for all the users of the forum to better understand the correct technique.

Regards.
// GONG STAFF //

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Ours
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Re: Upwind Wing Sup

Message par Ours » jeu. sept. 26, 2019 8:28 am

Hello,

caper en wingfoil est un souci commun à presque tous au début.
La première raison est le manque d'expérience de beaucoup de gens en vol sur leur "mauvais" coté. Devenir symétrique demande du temps. Compte quelques sessions.

Pour revenir d'où tu pars, il y a plusieurs choses à faire :

1/ Savoir d'où vient le vent. Ca parait stupide mais ce nouveau sport va vous occuper votre cerveau et vous allez partir naturellement sous le vent. Donc on prend des repères pour viser un vent de travers.

2/ Rebrousser chemin. Si vous avez fait 500m dans un sens à 90° du vent, vent de travers, vous devez suivre exactement ce chemin en sens inverse. Donc revenir à votre point de départ.

3/ Ne pas perdre de temps en manipulations car c'est une énorme perte de terrain. Vous dérivez à une vitesse folle.

4/ Vous voulez voler : ok. Mais tenter de voler vous amène à vouloir plus de puissance pour compenser votre manque de technique. Donc vous abattez et cela marchotte et devient un mauvais réflexe. Une wing fonctionne majoritairement avec du vent apparent, donc à des allures très abattues vous allez rattraper votre vent vitesse au lieu d'en générer rapidement comme vous le feriez au travers dans ces phases d'élancement.

5/ Marcher n'est pas un drame quand on a le choix de revenir à pied. Mais certains spots ne le permettent pas. Donc essayez toujours de gagner au vent pour rester autonome en mer.

6/ Reculez votre wing légèrement, et bordez un peu. Souvent les gens qui ne capent pas ont le wing devant eux et très choquée. Elle agit comme une voile de planche à voile : si vous la reculez elle vous fait lofer.

7/ Placez bien vos pieds, les reculer fait remonter au vent alors que les mettre coté au vent de votre planche vous fait juste voler mal et tardivement. Vos pieds doivent être sur l'axe central de la planche ou l'encadrer de près.

8/ Vous avez un coté fétiche : faites en votre coté cap. Profitez de votre talent de ce coté là pour gagner tout ce que vous pouvez. Ne vous laissez pas griser par le vol en partant sous le vent.

9/ Vous n'arrivez pas à voler d'un coté, alors si vous avez déjà perdu au vent, ne tentez pas de vol : concentrez vous sur le cap pour rentrer à votre point de départ à vitesse de tortue.

10/ Ultime recours : ramez allongé. Vous mettez la wing sur le dos, la planche face au vent avec la wing derrière, vous vous allongez sur la planche et vous coincez vos pieds dans le boudin de la wing et vous ramez. 100m gagnés c'est 100m gagnés ;-)

11/ Ultimate solution : vous avez une assistance généreuse qui vous remonte votre matos en vous disant des mots doux pour vous remonter aussi le moral du type : mais qu'est ce que tu fous bordel, c'est pourtant pas compliqué !!!!!!!!! ahahaha

Merci.

Hello,

Wingfoil upwind s a common concern for almost everyone at the beginning.
The first reason is the lack of experience that many people have flying on their "bad" side. Becoming ambidextrous takes time. Count on a few or more sessions.

To come back from where you are going, there are several things to do :

1 / Know where the wind comes from. It sounds stupid but this new sport will occupy your brain and you will naturally go downwind. So we take references and aim for a crosswind.

2 / Turn back. If you have done 500m in a 90 ° direction of the wind, crosswind, you must follow exactly this path in the opposite direction. So go back to where you started.

3 / Do not waste time in handling the Wing because it is a huge loss of ground. You’ll end up drifting at a crazy speeds.

4 / You want to fly : ok. But trying to fly will cause you to want more power to compensate for your lack of technique. So you end up going down wind and it works, for the moment and it soon becomes a bad reflex. A Wing works mainly with apparent wind, so at very sluggish speeds you will catch up with your wind speed instead of generating it quickly as you would through these phases of launching.

5 / Walking is not dramatic, when you have the choice to walk back, but some spots will not allow it. So always try to be ahead of the wind to stay autonomous at sea.

6 / Retreat your Wing slightly, and trim a little. Often people who cannot upwind have the Wing in front of them and very shocked. It acts like a sail of windsurfing : if you back it up it makes you luff.

7 / Get your stance right, backing them up helps with upwind while putting them on the wind side of the board just makes you fly badly and late. Your feet should be on the center line of the board or its frame or real close.

8 / You have a fetish side: do it on your upwind side. Enjoy your talent on this side to get all you can. Do not be fooled by the excitement of flight while sailing downwind.

9 / You cannot fly only on one side, so if you have already lost to the wind, do not try to fly: concentrate on the heading to return to your starting point at a turtles speed.

10 / Last resort : Paddle prone. You put the Wing on its back, the Board facing the wind with the Wing behind, you lie on the Board and you put your feet over the Leading Edge of the Wing and you paddle. 100m won is still 100m won ;-)

11 / Ultimate solution: you somebody who is generous to assist you and helps you drag your gear back up the beach and whispers sweet words into your ear to inflate your ego : but then what the hell are you doing, it's not complicated !!!! !!!!! lololol
Instru-mentaliste chez GONG

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Fabio
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Inscription : mer. sept. 11, 2019 6:29 pm

Re: Upwind Wing Sup

Message par Fabio » jeu. sept. 26, 2019 11:07 am

Thank you for these advices, I will keep them in mind when I buy a foil!

A quick update about my troubles going and staying upwind with a SUP and no foil:

Yesterday I finally managed to do it. YAYYY :) I guess practicing a few times was all I needed.

Yesterday it was the 5th time I used the gong 5m wing, but in one of the previous attempts I had practically no wind (5-7kn) and in another one I tried a heavy old windsurf board with a tiny fin at the back. So in truth this was only the 3rd time in good conditions (about 15 kn and my 9' surf SUP). So my first advice to those having trouble going upwind on a SUP is to keep practicing!

What I learned, technique-wise:

1) The foot position seems to be the key. What works for me is to place the back foot just above the back fin (in my board I can move the fin towards the front of the board). As for the front foot, I now place it just a little to the side of the handle of my sup (= center of gravity). Compared to windsurfing, I think that turning the board is not so much about changing the position of the sail... what seems to be more important is to push in the right direction with your feet and core: if you want to go upwind (and keep that direction) then you really have to push forward with your back foot and put more weight on it. Conversely, to turn downwind I push forward the front foot and switch your weight towards that. Your core (abs and back) has to work to maintain the relative angle between the wing and your feet (which turns out to be a bit tiring...).

2) As for the positions of the hands on the wing, I really advise everyone to watch carefully the videos posted by Gong here and on YouTube. Leaving 3 handles between the two hands seems to work really well for me. I mostly place them on the 1st and 5th handle to go upwind. But if you want to go faster, you can move them one handle back (i.e. 2nd and 6th handle). It seems to be harder to go upwind with this 2nd configuration though. I did manage to briefly plane yesterday, and it really felt good for those few seconds! I guess having a good board (offering the right surface to "skid" on the water) is key to succeed in planing.

This is what worked for me with so little practice. I may have to revise some of the advices above as I practise more. For the moment I have to say that I feel enthusiastic about this and that I am in no hurry to move on to foiling (I will eventually, one day...)
Je parle anglais et français, donc n'hésitez pas à m'écrire dans la langue que vous préférez.
I speak both English and French - souvent au même temps - so feel free to answer in whichever you prefer.

Takuma Surf SUP 9' x 29' 135L
Gong 5m Wing

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Fabio
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Inscription : mer. sept. 11, 2019 6:29 pm

Re: Upwind Wing Sup

Message par Fabio » jeu. sept. 26, 2019 11:14 am

Ah and compared to the guy in the video below (and also to the Naish videos), my feet are more apart from one another and I am more in a surf stance:
coolas a écrit :
ven. juin 28, 2019 9:22 am
phpBB [video]
Je parle anglais et français, donc n'hésitez pas à m'écrire dans la langue que vous préférez.
I speak both English and French - souvent au même temps - so feel free to answer in whichever you prefer.

Takuma Surf SUP 9' x 29' 135L
Gong 5m Wing

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