Zero 9'0 or maybe something else....

Onades
Messages : 4
Inscription : ven. févr. 14, 2020 8:01 pm
Localisation : Catalonia
Contact :

Zero 9'0 or maybe something else....

Message par Onades » lun. févr. 17, 2020 3:51 pm

Hi everyone,

I'm new here and looking forward to buy my first Gong SUP (and I need some advice). :)

Currently I have an RRD Cotan Wide (7'11x31 129l) and a regular Cotan for the wife (7'11x 29 120l). I'm a windsurfer from "origin" with no background in surf whatsoever. 
When windsurfing I like everything between 2m to 4m high, when supping everything from 1m to 3m. I find both Cotan's lacking in these conditions. Part will be due to my level on the SUP, but I also feel that these boards are too "big" in the bigger swell. What I also miss on these SUP's is to catch the wave further out, as you can do when windsurfing. 

This makes me looking into the Zero range, with the idea that I would be able to get on the bigger waves further out and spend more time on the wave before it breaks, and still have a reactive board for a nice bottom- and top turn. But that is just my own theory, having never surfed, nor supped a longboard.
Maybe someone here with some experience can give me his ideas? Nose riding and other longboard "tricks" are not a priority for me.

Alternatives I'm looking at are the Karmen 7'11 or 8'4, or even an Alley 8'1. I'm not sure how they would relate to the COTAN boards though. Any ideas how the Zero, Karmen and Alley compare stability wise (when looking at a 29" wide board). 

I'm completely at home on my COTAN Wide in all conditions, for the regular COTAN it needs to be more glassy or it becomes quite tiring for me within the hour.
The board will be used on the Atlantic coast during holidays and escapes during the weekends (not in the Mediterranean). 
54 years old windsurfer / paddler.
1.82m x 85kg in good physical condition.
Karmen FSP 2X 8'4 x 30 - 120l / NFA FSP 2X 9'0 - 120l / Karmen FSP 2X 7'11 - 105l
Image

Avatar de l’utilisateur
coolas
Messages : 14930
Inscription : lun. août 10, 2009 1:24 pm
Localisation : Ambassadeur Seignosse, 1m67, 97kg
Contact :

Re: Zero 9'0 or maybe something else....

Message par coolas » lun. févr. 17, 2020 4:51 pm

Hi Onades,

Basically your choices should be between the Zero or the Karmen. I would not recommend the Alley, as it more for experienced surfers, in that it has less "assisted steering", the board can do anything when you know what you want to do, but will not "do the right thing" by itself.

You are currently on a very stable, but slow shape, so Zero or Karmen will fell less stable but will paddle noticeably faster, allowing for an earlier wave entry. How much do you weight?
The Zero should be a bit stabler thank the Karmen due to its wide nose.
The Cotan is is the same "ecological niche" as the Gong Mob, so you can read the description of the Mob and compare it to the other Gong boards to have a good idea of the differences.
This video will also give you an idea of the differences between the Cotan and more streamlined shapes like the Zero and Karmen (the i-wave in the vid): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vDsRX9Bz34

The added length and fast rocker of the zero will allow it to catch waves earlier, but you will have to move a lot alongside the board to exploit it in practice: that is the "longboard feel": having 9' of board length is no use if during takeoff you do not move and let the nose come up and reduce the actual water line to 7'. Coming from windsurfing, this may be a new thing to learn, if you are used to be in the straps. The Karmen, although shorter, will paddle fast because of its more streamlined nose, and will require less moving on the board to pilot it. A longer board and a wider nose like the zero will take off very early but will need to be managed more to avoid nosediving in hollow waves.

Depending on your weight, you may want to use the Karmen 8'4" for early wave entry: if you sink the tail with your weight, the boards will paddle slower.
2019: 7'3" Fatal 105L, Alley 7'8" 105L & 8'1" 120L, Zero 9'0" 115L
2022: Mob 7'6" cool 120L, Alleys custom 7'10" 112L & 8'1" 114L
2023: Karmen custom 7'11" 118L
Surf: 9'1" XTR proto glider

Avatar de l’utilisateur
hecub
Messages : 2496
Inscription : lun. mai 05, 2014 3:13 pm
Localisation : Ambassadeur Auray
Contact :

Re: Zero 9'0 or maybe something else....

Message par hecub » lun. févr. 17, 2020 5:16 pm

Onades a écrit :
lun. févr. 17, 2020 3:51 pm
I'm completely at home on my COTAN Wide in all conditions, for the regular COTAN it needs to be more glassy or it becomes quite tiring for me within the hour.
Hi,

I only tried the Karmen for a few waves, it was the 140L version while I was using my Mob 135L for the rest of the session. I had no trouble dealing with it but I had some instability feeling with it compared to the Mob. If you're not confortable with the COTAN 120L I would consider the Karmen 140L. The board is very fast at paddling and has a very light feeling under the feet.
Surf: Lethal foil 4'6
Wing: Droïd 6-5 - Neutra 4, Cruzader Diamond 6'0
Foil: Sirus XXL - XL - L, Curve H XL - L - M
YouTube

Onades
Messages : 4
Inscription : ven. févr. 14, 2020 8:01 pm
Localisation : Catalonia
Contact :

Re: Zero 9'0 or maybe something else....

Message par Onades » lun. févr. 17, 2020 8:26 pm

Thanks for the fast responses Coolas & Hecub! Much appreciated!
Coolas, I'm around 83kg. I'm used to moving around on the SUP, as it's the only way to get somewhat early on the wave with the RRD. But I'm glad to hear that both the Karmen and the Zero will be faster to paddle, as this is another issue I have with my Cotan; it feels slow to paddle.

Nice to see the video of Ruben again. I had seen it when it came out, but hadn't thought of it again. It confirms my feeling that the Cotan isn't the board for the waves that I like...
Do you think that there will be a big difference in catching the wave early between the Zero and the Karmen? That would basically be my only reason for considering a Zero over a Karmen. Being able to be super early on the wave and get the most out of it. That's the biggest difference in sensation between supping and windsurfing for me: when windsurfing on bigger waves you can really start enjoying the wave early.

And I understand what you say about the Alley, but it's the "assisted steering" that I don't like so much. I'm used to "hardcore" wave boards in windsurfing and I'm looking for a "similar" feeling when supping. My problem (I think) is the balance during take off and while waiting for the waves.
So my next question: is there a big difference in balance between the Karmen and the Alley when comparing similar sizes? Or should I "size up" when considering an Alley?

Thanks for the comparison Hecub. It reminds me again not to go too small...
54 years old windsurfer / paddler.
1.82m x 85kg in good physical condition.
Karmen FSP 2X 8'4 x 30 - 120l / NFA FSP 2X 9'0 - 120l / Karmen FSP 2X 7'11 - 105l
Image

Avatar de l’utilisateur
coolas
Messages : 14930
Inscription : lun. août 10, 2009 1:24 pm
Localisation : Ambassadeur Seignosse, 1m67, 97kg
Contact :

Re: Zero 9'0 or maybe something else....

Message par coolas » lun. févr. 17, 2020 9:45 pm

First, if you have not seen them, read the detailed description of the boards that you can find once you click on the "Buying guide" tab when scrolling down. It starts in French but is followed by the English version, starting with "For Whom?", it should help you a lot with your questions.

If you are OK to move on the board, then there is no question: the Zero will enter earlier into the wave.

The Alley is less stable than the Karmen, especially in the nose. The Karmen (and the Zero even more) tolerate that your front foot wander away from the center line towards the rail, but the Alley will punish you by both rolling to the side and changing direction. It will be a big change from the Coltan which is at the other extreme.
I have written a post about it, in English at https://www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Sta ... -SUP-board?

With the Karmen or Zero (The karmen actually tries to have the same feeling in turns than the Zero), you can engage fully into turns, the rocker and rails will project the board forwards, using the rail efficiently in turns for hold ands speed. With the Alley, you have to build your speed in turns with your technique, and can botch them. It is quite different from Windsurfing (I have been windsurfing since 1975) as you do not have the sail to propell you, so you must use only your technique on the wave to generate speed (pumping your turns). With the Zero and Karmen, the board have a natural acceleration so that you can focus on radicalizing your turns.

The issue is also that, unlike the Karmen, you cannot "size up" the Alley. As the page says "Do not ‘over liter’ this Board. Too much volume will give it an unpleasant tumbling effect while a little water on the deck behind the heels will stall it." The volume in the alley is centered to keep the tips thin, too much volume will make you feel trying to balance on a barrel.

Here is me (100kg) on my Karmen 8'4" 120l, you can see it has a good glide to enter the wave without too much work (I had a strained rear ankle at the time). As Hecub said, at 83kg the Karmen 8'9" will be better to get a stability close (but less than) your Coltan. The Karmen 8'4" will be a bit less stable than your wife board.

phpBB [video]


But Matthieu on his Zero can take off on anything:

phpBB [video]
2019: 7'3" Fatal 105L, Alley 7'8" 105L & 8'1" 120L, Zero 9'0" 115L
2022: Mob 7'6" cool 120L, Alleys custom 7'10" 112L & 8'1" 114L
2023: Karmen custom 7'11" 118L
Surf: 9'1" XTR proto glider

Onades
Messages : 4
Inscription : ven. févr. 14, 2020 8:01 pm
Localisation : Catalonia
Contact :

Re: Zero 9'0 or maybe something else....

Message par Onades » lun. févr. 17, 2020 11:43 pm

Coolas, thanks again for the incredible info about the boards and your opinion. I had already read your post on the Seabreeze forum (and other posts of you there as well). I've also read the info on the Gong website extensively, but all this info is difficult to place in context if you don't have a reference point. So I'm very grateful for you helping me with that.
I'm leaning towards the Zero at the moment. The early start really attracts me and it will be still a nice board to have after I've progressed some more. I might even consider picking it up at the store and drive back along the coast to try some of the French spots. In your video it looks great.
54 years old windsurfer / paddler.
1.82m x 85kg in good physical condition.
Karmen FSP 2X 8'4 x 30 - 120l / NFA FSP 2X 9'0 - 120l / Karmen FSP 2X 7'11 - 105l
Image

Onades
Messages : 4
Inscription : ven. févr. 14, 2020 8:01 pm
Localisation : Catalonia
Contact :

Re: Zero 9'0 or maybe something else....

Message par Onades » sam. mai 30, 2020 1:09 pm

So, time for an update!
I ordered the Zero 9'0 XL and it arrived almost without carton around it. It was damaged in several places and I didn't even get it out of what was left of the carton box and let them take it away. Got in contact with Gong and found out that I had ordered the last 9'0XL and that no new versions would be coming either.
So I changed to the Karmen FSP 2x 8'4 which arrived also in a damaged box but had only a ding in the nose. Not really happy with that combined experience, and hitting myself in the head that I didn't visit La Baule when I was windsurfing in Ile de Ré the month before.

Anyhow, the Karmen I kept and I finally spend some days on the water with it. This was in the Mediterranean in no conditions whatsoever, but just to get the feel back after two months sitting at home.

My first impressions are:
+ incredibly light board, especially for the price
+ fast to paddle and nimble on the wave
+ nice finish and confortable dek padding
+ both quad and tri fins are included (7 fins)
+ great customer support from Jaime (fast, sympathetic and helpful)
+ quite stable, comparable with the RRD Cotan 7'11 x 29'
- carry handle isn't deep enough to lift the board if it's lying flat
- had to glue the dek pad twice already after 7 outings
- packaging in which the boards are shipped is really, really bad!

To expand on the last issue: the Flexi-Hex is a nice protection. But it won't withstand international shipping. Especially if the board inside the Flexi-Hex is kind of loose inside the box. I've received many (wind)surf boards over the years, and none were as casually packaged as these two boards I've received. I ordered board bags in both cases, and those were thrown separately in the box. I argued to ship the second board at least inside the BB, but the argument was that the board then wouldn't fit the carton anymore... Also the fins were thrown loose inside the box, and apart from loosing them if the box is damaged, they can cause damage to the board during shipping. Not something I expected from a company that ships the majority of its products.

So how do I now get my hands on a 9.0 Zero or NFA to keep my Karmen company...? :D
54 years old windsurfer / paddler.
1.82m x 85kg in good physical condition.
Karmen FSP 2X 8'4 x 30 - 120l / NFA FSP 2X 9'0 - 120l / Karmen FSP 2X 7'11 - 105l
Image

Répondre

Revenir à « Choisir sa planche / Choose your board »